Our ancestors feared dying a "straw death." The idea of living to old age, and being sick and weak, and a burden on your family and your tribe was something to avoid.

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And from the Havamal...

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My dad, Glen Stinson, fought in WWII. He was a successful business executive and later a successful entrepreneur. He was active his whole life, and loved to build things, work in the yard, and physically work hard. So as he got older, and was plagued by a bad heart and poor health, he was understandably upset by it.

He lived to be 77. And when we were alone, he would say to me, "I hate getting old." "I'm weak...I don't feel good...I can't do the things I used to be able to do." About a month before he died, he had my wife and I over for a cookout with my mom and he. He was at the old grill cooking steaks, and he started to tip over backwards. I put my hand on his back and steadied him. He thanked me, and said, "I hate this."

About a week before he died, he was passing the torch on the leadership of a group that he had helped start...a group of which he was the leader. There was a big ceremony to pass the torch, and a big dinner afterwards. He and I walked to the restroom, and on the way back...he had to stop every few steps and catch his breath. I walked with him holding his arm. He apologized for being so weak, and I told him he didn't need to apologize, and stayed with him back to his seat. He looked at me with appreciation and love.

Two nights before he died, he and I went to pick up pizzas for a family gathering. We were waiting for the pizzas, and we ordered a couple of beers. As we drank, he told me that he felt the doctors had finally gotten his medicines right. He was feeling better than he had felt for months...maybe years. He was in great spirits, and just wanted me to know how good he felt. Little did either of us know, this was just the calm before the end.

On the day he died, he was driving somewhere with my mom and his best friend. A hubcap came off the car, and they stopped. Dad got out to go get the hubcap, my mom calling out to him that she would get it. Dad ignored her, and jogged across the road to retrieve the hubcap, and he dropped dead. On the spot. The police came, then the ambulance people, and they were all trying CPR. He went to one hospital, and then another...as they tried to revive him. But he was gone.

Dad feared being a burden. He feared being bed-ridden, or incapacitated. He feared that he would linger...sick, tired, and a shadow of the man he had been. He felt weak as it was, and he feared a straw death. He was not a man that feared anything, but he feared this one thing.

And I'm absolutely certain he's glad he died without becoming a burden on anyone.

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

This is one of those things that I would like to have more information on. Assorted opinions of folk from back then on how it worked in practice.

I see a thought process that could lend itself to exploitation, but at the same time I see a concept that could be both practical (like not wanting to burden your family) and mystical.

There's a thin line between fearlessly brave and incredibly insane. I've thought a lot lately about what sort of folks these Einherjar are, and would have been while they were alive.

Is it an all around ideal to aspire to? Or is it a fit for people both valued by their society while at the same time making everyone really, really nervous just to be around?

Another Heathen told me that there were different halls one could end up in. The only online research I've done mentions a mountain that people go to live under with their families when they die, and that wasn't in the lore but on wikipedia.

I've got some own thoughts on the subject that I'm kicking around, but am rather engaged in other reading at the moment. I've moved from metaphysical to fiction, for the time being, but still ponder these things from time to time.

On the one hand I don't want to burden my family. It may be a moot point because at this stage in the game I doubt I will have family to burden. I suppose I could just go ape-shit while I still had the strength, try to meet myself a Valkyrie instead of suffocating in a pauper's nursing home while wallowing in dementia.

I don't think that Odin is fooled by self inflicted spear wounds.

-Max-

Interesting thoughts and questions, Max.

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H.R. Ellis Davidson mentions the mountain story in her books. Remembering that heathen beliefs varied from area to area, and depending on timeframe...beliefs about the afterlife differed as well. Ellis Davidson mentions a particular family that believed their dead family members were waiting for them under the local mountain. One of the family members had been herding sheep (or something), and side of the mountain opened up...and he saw all his ancestors inside the mountain...feasting and drinking, and the family believed that is where they would go when they died.

We do have in the Lore that Odin takes half the fallen, and Freyja the other half. And the belief that those that did not die in battle, went to various regions of Hel...each region or area exhibiting various levels of comfort (or discomfort, depending on your actions in life). And there was a belief that Thor took those that toiled all their lives to his hall...a hall with 540 feasting room...to eat, drink, and live in comfort. This was all part of Thor's connection (and popularity) with the common man.

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I'm not sure if anyone believed a self-inflicted spear wound as old age approached would get you into Vahalla. If you lived then, and you feared weeks or months of pain and discomfort, sickness and disease, before death...and being a burden on your family and tribe, I can see why someone might be motivated to end that threat with a ritualistic suicide. There were no pain-killers, modern medicines, or ways of making old age and death comfortable. Not saying that's something I intend to do...but I can see the motivation. And if you are going to kill yourself, why not do it in a way that honors the God of Death (which to some degree, is the role Odin served)? Perhaps some did think they would go to Vahalla, but I can see where they may just have chosen that method to honor a God they thought might help them along the way to wherever it was they might end up. I don't know.

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I don't necessarily agree that being brave means you are fearless. Bravery is taking action in the face of fear. Or being able to set aside your fear, and do what you know you should do as a man.

As a police officer, we are trained to be prudent, cautious, and protective of our own lives. Of course. But, when someone is walking through a Mall or a school building shooting innocent women and children, officers rush to confront that murderer. They do so knowing they may die. They do so in the hope they can prevent further deaths at the hand of the shooter. And the greatest shame a police officer could face is NOT entering that mall or school with his fellow police officers.

The same is true when a police officer is making drug arrests, chasing a murderer on foot, confronting a mentally unstable person with a knife, knocking on a guy's door with $75,000 worth of warrants, or anything else a police officer does on a regular basis. You do these things a prudently as you can...but it is never "safe."

I posted here a long time ago, that when I was working the inner city as an officer, at the beginning of my shift I would stop at the end of the police parking lot. I would stop every night and think to myself, "I might not see my wife again (I didn't have kids then). I might not see my parents or friends. I might not ever eat my favorite foods, or listen to my favorite music. Tonight I might die."

And that was sort of my personal ritual to put that fear of death behind me, and go into every call-for-service, car stop, and pedestrian check without any real fear. I think to some degree, that was the mind-set these raiders and warriors took. Better to do your job bravely and die, than to shame yourself with cowardice and reach old age. So I do think its an ideal worth aspiring to.

This goes for people besides police officers. Those firemen that were running up the World Trade Center stairs, while everyone else was running down them. The soldiers that protect our country. The man on the street that runs into a burning building to save a child. The bystanders that rush up to a car wreck, break the windows, and pull the unconscious driver out of a burning car. The citizen that stands up for his freedoms or rights against a government that is trying to "tread upon him." The neighbors that rush outside into a storm, to make sure their neighbors are OK after a tornado has passed over. I think doing the right thing, in the face of possible injury of death is a powerful ideal to live up to.

There are things I want to get old enough to see. I want to see my kids grow up. I want to see my kids have kids. I want to babysit my grandkids. I want to retire someday, and pursue a 2nd career that is as equally rewarding as my 1st career. I want these things. But I won't shame myself to attain these things. I would rather be remembered after my early death as incredibly brave, than live to old age as a forgetable man who did nothing in his life but avoid risks.

My father risked it all in WWII. I believe a full third of the U.S. submarines were lost at sea. And he was a brave and strident throughout his life. He took business risk, personal risks, and always stood up for what was right. I have no doubt that he would have rushed into a burning building to save a life. He was just that sort of man.

So for him, reaching old age was painful. He hadn't reached old age out of cowardice. He reached old age because he had Luck. But as an old man, he was weak. He was out-of-breath. He could not do his own yard work, keep up his house, or do the things he felt it was his role as a man to do. And He feared what his medical situation would do to his family if he continued to deteriorate. But he was a figher, and refused to give up. So it was a blessing that he died on his feet. And I'm hopeful I'll die on my feet as well.

Long post...but its a topic that interests me.

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

I find it interesting that the fear of being a burden on the family/clan when an individual gets older and infirm shows up in different cultures. Several Native American plains tribes had a tradition where the elders, if they felt that they might not survive the winter/summer when the tribe picked up and moved to the seasonal site, would voluntarily stay behind and embrace the end while the tribe moved to the new location. It was their way of not becoming a burden for the tribe.

I see this in my own family as well. My grandfathers were both fiercely independent souls who wanted to stand on their own two feet and not be a burden to their families. Sure, part of this was through the virtue of having come through the depression era, and living the independent lifestyle that was so common back then, but it was also part of their character. In the end both of them spent their last days in a hospital, and both of them hated it vehemently because they were helpless and a burden.

Now I am watching my own father waste away with Parkinson's Disease. I see the pain in his eyes, not from the disease, but from becoming infirm and helpless. I treasure the light that I see in his eyes when holding my children, knowing that it is one of the few times when he feels alive and whole. But even those times come with pain because to hold them he has to be sitting in his chair for fear of dropping them...

My family has always had that independent streak, and we learned it form our ancestors. One of the things we hate the most is the thought of becoming a burden upon our family or society. I just hope that I can teach this to my own children. I don't want them growing up depending upon the government, regardless of what is so prevalent in our country right now.

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Jeffrey Jelmeland
Forest Grove, OR
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I have had to deal with this on several levels. I have sat and contemplated on it quite a bit with no solid answer.

We are not by and large warriors (Mark you are the closest *active* one right now) as culture anymore.

We need to redefine what our battlefields are to better understand this.

Fighting cancer and overcoming it I think would have brought low any Egil or Skarp Hadin.

The sheer amount of information we go through in a day would terrify our ancestors. Dealing with the information with our Head, Heart, and Spirit is as exhausting as swinging a sword on Idavol field.

I think that if we approach our life and worldview from the martial viewpoint of our ancestors, we will be able to bridge the gap. Corporate politics is constant Holmgang of the subtle sort. Doing so while following Right action and using the Nine Nobles as a guide makes it even more of a challenge.

Always press forward, assess the situation and then act accordingly. The ballet of sword fighting, the zen of bow shooting, and the principles of martial arts have non-martial applications. That is why the greatest warriors wrote poetry, grew or created gardens or farms, and other such pursuits.

To the samurai, mastering the stroke of calligraphy enhanced and contributed to the stroke of the sword and vice-versa.

So instead of trying to focus on the body, which inevitably will break down, I recommend focusing on the Mind. Use your heathenry to go accomplish and succeed on any battlefield you fight on.

I strongly feel that for every name of the Alfather there is a hall. Therefore, while you might not make it exactly to the Valhal, you may find yourself in Tyr's hall, or Heimdal's defending Asgard, Thor's Hall, or even amoung Frey's Hall.

Or you may be welcomed wholly into your own families Hall as a great person indeed because you set a new bar for the family.

The goal for a heathen is not what happens after ... that's Xtian baggage, but what you are doing now. The actions and deeds you are accomplishing. if you keep going and pushing forward, even if your body holds you back, I think avoids a straw death.

When I worked in Hospice I saw 65 year olds that had simply given up. They sat in a chair and did nothing. That is a straw death. When you stop contributing and accomplishing. When you see those folk that live to over a hundred. They are inevitably asked how they do it. Almost every time they are doers. They can't run a marathon but they can play a horn, give advice, contribute an idea, write or talk about what they have in spades experience! Run till you can't run anymore but that doesn't mean you stop. If your actions and deeds continue then you avoid the straw death.

I had to really come to grips with this because an ex-kindred brother of mine from Yggdrasil Springs named Templar (I can't remember his real name I add it when I find it) was gunned down about two years ago.

Templar was an alcoholic, a man in his forties that has been in the military, and led a pretty martial life ... yet still lived with him mother and while he was active in the pagan and then Heathen communities ... he still was predominantly alone, thus would drink.

He fell for a woman that he felt was his ideal mate for reasons that she could best him in a sparing match, challenge him at chess, and out argue him on many positions. However, she didn't care for him in that way. He hung around her pining for years. Then for reasons I don't know ... she committed suicide. This sent him into a spiral.

He began to come to Kindred fainings drunk. The whole kindred grew concerned and I called him one fateful night and did what I could to offer help. He refused ... in fact he took it as an insult that he couldn't handle it and that it took me and my grandious priestly ways to help him. He hated me to the point of never being in the same room with me for years after.

I kept tabs on him as best I could. He may have severed ties but I still felt this man was a kindred brother. I found out his mother died after a long wasting illness and he was about to loose the house. He sunk deeper into his bottle. Friends he had for literally a decade or more he dismissed and got angered by. He alienated everyone around him that cared about him ... I'm pretty sure because he felt that everyone he cared about either died or tried to control him.

Based on the newspaper story, the Target where he worked denied him a position because he had failed or did not qualify to carry a weapon. He felt he was a warrior, and that his sword. To be denied the very thing that kept him going I feel pushed him over.

He went to a shopping area and opened fire on the crowd killing two and seriously wounding another. The cops that came winged him but he got away.

He drove to the Target store that had denied him. Dripping blood and with guns in his hand he determined he was going to "cause havoc" at the store that had denied him his warriors right. He was gunned down in a hail of bullets.

His fear of a straw death along with alcoholism led to this. He wanted a warriors death but didn't have any way to do so. So he created one.

I honour my kindred brother from when I knew him ... he gave me my first Valknut, taught me some quick disarming moves, and one time literally gave me the shirt off his back. We both tackled and overcame a 30lb turkey filled with Oyster stuffing that we feeding to fellow heathens at a Yule celebration in 98 at his home.

Had he not been so proud and denied the help of his kindred and many friends ... he may be still alive. He made his wyrd and took his action ... for nothing. The man wanted to be the great warrior hero avoiding the straw death ... yet while he didn't die upon the straw ... he did die a coward's death.

I think that's a lesson we need to all remember.

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The importance of thinking about it, to me, is that it could go a long way toward effecting how we do live our lives. The Heathen gods apparently require positive action not to be mitigated with pure intent. That is an important distinction between other cults which require either basic professions or non-actions, such as following rules of abstaining.

My preliminary take on this is that Heathenry doesn't sacrifice this world for the next, but rather seems to regard the "next life" as a continuation of this one. That makes the positive actions of this life important for one who would have a positive afterlife.

-Max-

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I think that is the sad part of this man's story. I do not believe that a "warrior's mindset" or a "warrior's belief system" led to his decline or his eventual end. I think it was a opposite.

I think he was broken in some way we may never know. He was a dedicated and determined alcoholic. He had an unhealthy/unsatisfying relationship with an unhealthy person. And due to the above problems, he was not working...did not have money...did not have his own place to live...and was losing his mother's house. On top of this he turned from all his friends.

In the end he shot and injured a police officer on a traffic stop. And then shot and killed innocent unarmed people at a Mall. People just shopping. Could have been my wife. Your partner. One of our other family members, or even members of our Kindred. The only reason more innocent unarmed people didn't die is because police officers rushed to his location and shot him.

Avoiding a Straw Death does not lead a sane normal person to go on a homicidal killing spree. Its simply the universal (and understandable) inclination to not want to get old, wither away, and become a helpless burden on your family or tribe.

Its also means, by extension, not allowing cowardice or selfishness to stand in the way of doing what you should do. When people cling to life, and their fear of death, to such a degree that they do not act bravely in the face of opposition, wrong-doing, and danger...they may live to old age...but the ails and aches of old age will dog them. And the damage they do to their Wyrd and Luck will have an equally damaging affect on the quality of their life.

I don't think modern advancements have made this an out-dated belief.

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

There's a flip side to this coin. Elders once served a purpose in preserving stories and lore for the younger members of the family. Someone mentioned Native Plains tribes once left elders (who refused to budge and be a "burden") behind when they moved. Yes, they did this; generally before they had horses. With horses came the ability to use travois capable of carrying the elders. Regardless, settled tribes did not do this. They valued elders to preserve lore and detailed instructions about ceremonies and rituals. They didn't have a written language and such things were passed down and took decades to learn.

I believe a good human being has value, regardless of age. I've seen people cut down in the prime of their life. Were they better off? Well, no. Their families certainly weren't. They became a burden in death because the family lost their main provider. Their children lost a father or mother.

I understand not wanting to lie in bed and waste away. But, IMHO, we are not the Gods and it is not for us to say how They shall call us. That's my opinion, and I'll say I am not Asatru, so it may not be correct to Asatru beliefs. But I think we should beware of using the word "burden" in regards to lesser-abled people in society. It's one thing if an individual thinks he might be. But if we apply that word to others and say they are "burdens", the end of that road winds up in horror and dishonor.

Lundberg, when you came here to our message board you made a point of saying you were not Asatru, but you said...

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The point I'm making is simple. This is an Asatru message board. It has a purpose for both our Kindred, and to those heathens that come here. Its not a "general discussion board," its an "Asatru discussion board." So,

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That's NOT a flip-side in any way shape or form. Elders are respected and treated well within Asatru. If you've read much of this board (or even this string), my father was an amazing man...and one that was willing and able to pass on great wisdom. He lived through the Depression, fought in WW2, built companies from the ground up, and always put his family first. Hardly a question comes up where I do not at least consider some piece of advice my father gave me.

A discussion of a "straw death" has nothing to do with not valueing our elders. It has nothing to do with that at all. A straw death is when someone avoids risk and danger in the most cowardly way, and thus lives to old age by way of a slavish adherence to their fear of death. Have you read the Havamal?

My dad fought old age long and hard. He fought it as hard as Thor at Utgard-Loki's hall. But no man can stand against old age. And my dad feared becoming a burden. A burden in his judgement, not mine. If you bothered to read the post that started this string, I told the story of him apologizing for me having to help him...and me telling him that it was no problem at all. I conveyed to my dad numerous times that he was not a burden...because I loved him. But that wasn't the point at all. HE DID NOT WANT TO BE A BURDEN, independent of anything we said or expressed to him. That was probably the one big fear in his life. That is a straw death.

And I believe its an almost Universal fear. Who would say the opposite? LOL. "I want to get so old I can't feed myself. I want to get so old that I go to the bathroom in my pants. So old that I am in constant pain, and yet live on. So old that all of the money I accumulated over my life goes to a hospital or care facility, and not my family. So old that I don't recognize anyone, and talk nonsense the last 10 years of my life." Who says this? No one says this. No one wants to die in the straw, in pain, helpless, and a burden upon everyone around them.

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Again you miss the point. I don't say this to be mean, but to say to you..."you aren't getting it."

No one is talking about purposely "getting cut down in the prime of your life." No one is talking about that as a goal. Do you think our Vikng ancestors ran around attempting to get killed? Do you think they went into battle thinking, I really hope I die today? I don't think this was the case at all for the vast vast majority of them. They were rational, prudent, intelligent men. Their belief system was well developed and complex, their boatmaking and navigation skills extremely advanced, and their weapon making and martial abilities top-notch. They were traders and raiders. They may have feared a straw death more than death in battle, but they went into every battle with every intention of doing everything they could to survive.

And today, what do you want, Lundberg? Would you like police officers to hide back at the station so they don't get "cut down in the prime of life?" Would you like fireman to stay on their truck and watch your house burn with you in it, so they don't get "cut down in the prime of life." Someone grabs your kid at the mall and starts to drag him/her away, you going to stand and watch so you don't get "cut down in the prime of life?"

The point is simple. Live bravely. Don't back down from opposition, wrong-doing, and threats. Stand up for yourself, your family, and your community. Don't let fear paralyze you...fight back, whether that's physically, verbally, politically, financially...whatever realm the fight is taking place in. The point is not to seek death...the point is to not let fear rule your life, just so you can die an old coward in the painful grip of old age.

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Lundberg, here's where you should probably be asking questions instead of telling us your opinion. We are not gods, but we are descended from them. They are our Elder Kin. We do shape our own world. We don't wait for the gods to "call us home." This is not Christianity, or any other religion. Its Asatru.

The gods expect us to live our lives. They expect us to live in a way that honors them...and honors our ancestors. Living bravely honors the gods. When I live bravely, I am NOT choosing death. That's not it at all. When I live bravely, I'm saying that the fear of death has no hold on me. I will do what's right, regardless of risk...because it is right. That has nothing to do with choosing death. It has everything to do with choosing to be a man, and not sniveling and whining my way through life, hiding from every risk, just so I can die old and in pain on some straw mat.

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Again, are you hear to ask questions and learn about Asatru, or to tell us what we should think? We are using the English language here on the board. Go look up "burden" in the dictionary. I will use the word "burden" in the way its defined, and not the way of overly sensitive-politeness.

A 90-year-old man who has lost his cognitive abilities, his recognition of people, his ability to communicate, his ability to use a toilet, his ability to feed himself, and he lies in bed 24-hours-a-day, heavily medicated and kept alive by our medical advancements...that is a burden. It just is. If its not a "burden," then perhaps you are volunteering to take three or four of these individuals into you home and care for them? "No, we're not going to pay you to take care of them. Of course not...you said they wouldn't be a burden on you...so we didn't think you'd mind caring for a few from the local care facility in your home."

Now, at what point does a human being become a burden? My kids are a burden. A burden I gladly carry. But they cost me money, they take up my time, they break things in the house, they take me away from my outside interests, they cause me stress. They are a WELCOME burden. I take that burden on with relish. If my father had made it to the point where he needed more care either in a resthome or here at my house, he would have been a welcome burden. He could still hold his grandchildren, communicate, and enjoy life. That was a burden I would have accepted happily.

But there is a point where modern science can keep the body alive, even once all the quality has left a life. And this is something I personally don't want to experience.

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

Mark,

Well said. Ditto.

Ike

Understood. I apologize for my intrusion. Thanks for your time. I will leave you guys to your board. Please delete my profile from the board as I think it best I go elsewhere. Not "taking my ball and going home", but you make a very good point and one I respect. I stepped way over the line in my posts. I probably should have read more before registering here. I am not Asatru and it is not proper for me to be here discussing things that are at odds with it. So, again, thanks for letting me come look around, I appreciate it.

Cheers!
Lundberg

No harm, no foul, Lundberg. Good luck to you, and it was good to meet you (in an internet sort of way.)

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

Hey mark.

You make good points in your earlier posts. Its not about what we think with regard to what/who is a burden and who is not - but what the person in question thinks. In heathenry I see it largely as the maintenance of honor and a person placing the good of the 'clan' so to speak, above his own needs..

In your father's case he was a strong-spirited, honorable man who had served his family well all of his life and when the winter of his life was upon him he didn't want to have that cause problems for his family. Totally understandable.

My own experience with this came with the passing of my Native grandfather, many years back. Like your dad, he was strong spirited and had been very independent and hard working his whole life. Suddenly that all changed when he was diagnosed, in his nineties, with cancer.

He took it all in stride and knew that his time had come. Rather to be a burden to anyone he took the Long Walk and simply disappeared into the northern forests to pass on.
There were those who said they thought this was a selfish thing for him to do. On the contrary it was out of love for his family that he chose to do such a thing.

It is up to the individual of course, but there is nobility in those who choose the welfare of others in their family before their own needs.

Regards

Mike

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He sounds like he was a strong man...and knew exactly what he was doing. Sad that some saw it as selfish. He chose to face his end on his terms, and in a way that he felt would maintain his honor and serve his family. You were lucky to have such a grandfather...

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

my personal opinion,is this:

you build your ''power'' in life,that you use in the afterlife.

if you die in battle,you go to valhalla,or possibly sessrumnir,or a few other halls,depending if you are chosen by not-so-well known gods.

you die a straw death,and the journey is greater.
you are given a chance to prove yourself,to advance,and to ascend to a higher state.

in my eyes,no matter where you end up,the journey never ends. we rest in between,but we never stop.
even ragnarok doesnt stop us,cause we continue after it.

if you go to valhalla,you eat and fight,and die,and are reborn everyday,which is steeped in honor,but is a struggle as well.

if i die a straw death,i know for fact,that i will ascend through the underworld,or hel. i will fight my way to asgard,or vanaheim,or alfheim,and prove im worthy to be placed in a warriors hall,where my ongoing training,and journey will continue.

btw...mark....you may not have served in the military,but being an honorable heathen police officer,you are serving in a military capacity.

i also think that what you do,your niche in life,determines where you will accel in the afterlife.
if you are a guide in life,in death,you will be strong or weak,and be able to guide people in the right,or wrong direction,depending on whether you were reighteous or not.

there are forks in the roads in the afterlife,im sure of it. paths to travel,and you can go in the correct,or incorrect direction.

if you were chaotic,your afterlife will be tough,or you may end up with the sons and daughters of muspel,or niefel,or you may just end up in a long line to the nidhogg,especially if you honor chaos beings of destruction.

mark,your family member faught in ww2,just as my grandfather did,and as it turns out,they died the same way. i believe that both of them will,or have faught their ways to the high warrior halls.

Very possible. Whereever my dad is...he's making the best of it. A big glass of whiskey, with just a splash of coke. A big sandwich nearby...or a clever stew he made himself. He was a very good cook. There's a group of people sitting about, and they are having deep and amazing conversations...interspersed occasionally with bad jokes...a pun or two...and loud hearty laughter.

And if there's anything to organize, or lead, or make work...he'd be there, thinking it through, working with others, and making it happen.

I don't know what the afterlife is like really...but I'd like to think that's where my father is and what he's up to...

Mark

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Mark Ludwig Stinson
Chieftain of Jotun's Bane Kindred
Heartland Hof and Hall Fund

lol...maybe they are friends. my grandpa owned a carnival,and worked the fryers all the time...he loved cookin. he liked his cigars too.